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	<title>Comments on: Thus spake Tommasini</title>
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	<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/</link>
	<description>where opera is king and you, the readers, are queens</description>
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		<title>By: Regina delle fate</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111879</link>
		<dc:creator>Regina delle fate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 11:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think it is also true that Verdi always worked with the original French text when revising Don Carlos for the Italian translation in Italian theatres. But I bow to La Cieca&#039;s obviously in-depth knowledge of this thorny conundrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is also true that Verdi always worked with the original French text when revising Don Carlos for the Italian translation in Italian theatres. But I bow to La Cieca&#8217;s obviously in-depth knowledge of this thorny conundrum.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Holland</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111865</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Holland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 04:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;What toadying nonsense. One could as well say that since KHOVANSHCHINA and TURANDOT and MOSES UND ARON and LULU were left unfinished, absolutely anything one did to make them more slick and marketable would be fine&lt;/i&gt;

The last two are somewhat different cases from the first two.  MOSES UND ARON may technically be incomplete, as Schoenberg wrote the text for a third act that consisted of M &amp; A arguing, then Aron dropping dead.  He completed the first two acts and they work perfectly.  

LULU was orchestrated up until about 1/4 of the way through the third act and the rest was complete in short score.  Since the last scenes, in London, were basically reprises of already heard material, it was fairly easy for Cerha to re-construct the orchestration.  

Both are incredible operas and I&#039;m glad they get performed on the fringes of the standard rep; the City Opera Achim Freyer production of MOSES UND ARON in the early 90&#039;s was one of the best nights I&#039;ve ever had in an opera house.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What toadying nonsense. One could as well say that since KHOVANSHCHINA and TURANDOT and MOSES UND ARON and LULU were left unfinished, absolutely anything one did to make them more slick and marketable would be fine</i></p>
<p>The last two are somewhat different cases from the first two.  MOSES UND ARON may technically be incomplete, as Schoenberg wrote the text for a third act that consisted of M &amp; A arguing, then Aron dropping dead.  He completed the first two acts and they work perfectly.  </p>
<p>LULU was orchestrated up until about 1/4 of the way through the third act and the rest was complete in short score.  Since the last scenes, in London, were basically reprises of already heard material, it was fairly easy for Cerha to re-construct the orchestration.  </p>
<p>Both are incredible operas and I&#8217;m glad they get performed on the fringes of the standard rep; the City Opera Achim Freyer production of MOSES UND ARON in the early 90&#8242;s was one of the best nights I&#8217;ve ever had in an opera house.</p>
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		<title>By: Arianna a Nasso</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111857</link>
		<dc:creator>Arianna a Nasso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 02:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The 70s were more fun, weren&#039;t they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 70s were more fun, weren&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: CruzSF</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111856</link>
		<dc:creator>CruzSF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think Andy Porter (who used to bring bewildered looking pick ups to the Met press room dressed in full leather) found ms in the Paris Opera back men’s room and connected it with the ur-Don Carlos (why he was clutching at the old bricks therein has never been explained)&lt;/i&gt;

WTF?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think Andy Porter (who used to bring bewildered looking pick ups to the Met press room dressed in full leather) found ms in the Paris Opera back men’s room and connected it with the ur-Don Carlos (why he was clutching at the old bricks therein has never been explained)</i></p>
<p>WTF?</p>
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		<title>By: warmke</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111854</link>
		<dc:creator>warmke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Of course, the issue is not one of whether Levine is lazy in not attempting the newer edition, rather it&#039;s more a question of who is better situated to judge what is theatrically and musically more effective, the man who has been running one of the world&#039;s great opera houses for over thirty years, or Captain Ahab? It&#039;s rather transparent what the answer is, being the person with the greater objectivity in judging the materials.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, the issue is not one of whether Levine is lazy in not attempting the newer edition, rather it&#8217;s more a question of who is better situated to judge what is theatrically and musically more effective, the man who has been running one of the world&#8217;s great opera houses for over thirty years, or Captain Ahab? It&#8217;s rather transparent what the answer is, being the person with the greater objectivity in judging the materials.</p>
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		<title>By: amoebaguy</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111850</link>
		<dc:creator>amoebaguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes! I work at the Amoeba store in Hollywood (although I will soon be taking a year off to take care of my ailing mother and complete my book on &quot;Hoffmann&quot;).
Thank you for not taking offense at my correction.
It should also be stated that the materials which the Met is using that coincide with Kaye&#039;s edition are still being used in Oeser&#039;s versions. For example, when he re-instated the &quot;Trio des yeux&quot;, Oeser had only Offenbach&#039;s earlier, un-orchestrated version written for a baritone Hoffmann, to go on. Oeser orchestrated it himself (in a particularly un-idiomatic manner - that insistent snare drum!) and made the necessary changes in Hoffmann&#039;s part. But a more authentic, orchestrated version has surfaced since then which dates, I believe, from the early rehearsal period at the Opera-Comique before the number was cut (This is the version used in Kaye). This is just one of many differences between Oeser and Kaye.
I doubt if too many people in the audience would notice much of this, or even care, but, in my opinion, it matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes! I work at the Amoeba store in Hollywood (although I will soon be taking a year off to take care of my ailing mother and complete my book on &#8220;Hoffmann&#8221;).<br />
Thank you for not taking offense at my correction.<br />
It should also be stated that the materials which the Met is using that coincide with Kaye&#8217;s edition are still being used in Oeser&#8217;s versions. For example, when he re-instated the &#8220;Trio des yeux&#8221;, Oeser had only Offenbach&#8217;s earlier, un-orchestrated version written for a baritone Hoffmann, to go on. Oeser orchestrated it himself (in a particularly un-idiomatic manner &#8211; that insistent snare drum!) and made the necessary changes in Hoffmann&#8217;s part. But a more authentic, orchestrated version has surfaced since then which dates, I believe, from the early rehearsal period at the Opera-Comique before the number was cut (This is the version used in Kaye). This is just one of many differences between Oeser and Kaye.<br />
I doubt if too many people in the audience would notice much of this, or even care, but, in my opinion, it matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Arianna a Nasso</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111848</link>
		<dc:creator>Arianna a Nasso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot; it’s simply a matter of learning the words. &quot;

Given the quality of French pronunciation on major operatic stages, I would hazard to guess this is not as &#039;simple&#039; as you suggest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; it’s simply a matter of learning the words. &#8221;</p>
<p>Given the quality of French pronunciation on major operatic stages, I would hazard to guess this is not as &#8216;simple&#8217; as you suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: La Cieca</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111842</link>
		<dc:creator>La Cieca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am afraid you are very much mistaken about the setting of Don Carlos. The text was written in French and Verdi set these French words, with the exception of a line here and there he objected to (e.g., a slur calling Italians &quot;race faible et poltronne.&quot;)

It is true that Verdi had some miserable experiences working at the Paris Opera, but that had little to do with the language and everything to do with the very different working conditions there: I believe he once (hyperbolically) complained that it took a meeting of the board of directors to decide whether the leading lady should gesture with her left hand or her right.

After Don Carlos failed at the Opera (despite some, not all, favorable reviews) Verdi allowed the work to be adapted for the Italian and international stage in an Italian language version. But this proves nothing one way or the other about Verdi&#039;s preferences: Italian was the standard operatic language internationally (except for German-speaking countries).  Therefore Faust, Carmen, Les Huguenots and even Lohengrin were best known worldwide in Italian translation until around the turn of the 20th century.

The du Locle-Méry libretto for Don Carlos is neither great poetry nor (in many places) great drama, but it has the distinct advantage of being written in a straightforward and literate style, without the many inversions and other distortions of syntax that litter the Italian translation. Budden chooses as a particularly telling example a line in the middle section of Elisabeth&#039;s great aria. In French she sings:

&quot;Fontainebleau! Mon coeur est plein de votre image!&quot; [Fontainebleau! My heart is filled with your image.]

In Italian, this lovely line is gnarled into 

&quot;Fontainebleau! ver voi schiude il pensiero i vanni!&quot; [Fontainebleau! Toward thee opens my thought the pinions.]

And no, &quot;vanni&quot; does not quite mean &quot;wings&quot; (not that Elisabeth even mentioned wings in the original).  It&#039;s a deliberate archaic usage, the kind of diction hack Italian librettists fell back on when they wanted to sound grand and old-timey.

Anyone who can sing a role in Don Carlo in Italian can sing the same role in Don Carlos in French: it&#039;s simply a matter of learning the words. I am sure there was a time when a lot of baritones dragged their feet about relearning &quot;Dio possente&quot; from Faust, too, but they did it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid you are very much mistaken about the setting of Don Carlos. The text was written in French and Verdi set these French words, with the exception of a line here and there he objected to (e.g., a slur calling Italians &#8220;race faible et poltronne.&#8221;)</p>
<p>It is true that Verdi had some miserable experiences working at the Paris Opera, but that had little to do with the language and everything to do with the very different working conditions there: I believe he once (hyperbolically) complained that it took a meeting of the board of directors to decide whether the leading lady should gesture with her left hand or her right.</p>
<p>After Don Carlos failed at the Opera (despite some, not all, favorable reviews) Verdi allowed the work to be adapted for the Italian and international stage in an Italian language version. But this proves nothing one way or the other about Verdi&#8217;s preferences: Italian was the standard operatic language internationally (except for German-speaking countries).  Therefore Faust, Carmen, Les Huguenots and even Lohengrin were best known worldwide in Italian translation until around the turn of the 20th century.</p>
<p>The du Locle-Méry libretto for Don Carlos is neither great poetry nor (in many places) great drama, but it has the distinct advantage of being written in a straightforward and literate style, without the many inversions and other distortions of syntax that litter the Italian translation. Budden chooses as a particularly telling example a line in the middle section of Elisabeth&#8217;s great aria. In French she sings:</p>
<p>&#8220;Fontainebleau! Mon coeur est plein de votre image!&#8221; [Fontainebleau! My heart is filled with your image.]</p>
<p>In Italian, this lovely line is gnarled into </p>
<p>&#8220;Fontainebleau! ver voi schiude il pensiero i vanni!&#8221; [Fontainebleau! Toward thee opens my thought the pinions.]</p>
<p>And no, &#8220;vanni&#8221; does not quite mean &#8220;wings&#8221; (not that Elisabeth even mentioned wings in the original).  It&#8217;s a deliberate archaic usage, the kind of diction hack Italian librettists fell back on when they wanted to sound grand and old-timey.</p>
<p>Anyone who can sing a role in Don Carlo in Italian can sing the same role in Don Carlos in French: it&#8217;s simply a matter of learning the words. I am sure there was a time when a lot of baritones dragged their feet about relearning &#8220;Dio possente&#8221; from Faust, too, but they did it.</p>
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		<title>By: MontyNostry</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111840</link>
		<dc:creator>MontyNostry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Haven&#039;t you heard about this recording
http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN 3162
&quot;Tenor Julian Gavin takes the lead of Don Carlos and is ably assisted by William Dazeley as Rodrigo, Janice Watson as Elizabeth, and Alistair Miles as Philip II and Sir John Tomlinson as the Grand Inquisitor.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t you heard about this recording<br />
<a href="http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN" rel="nofollow">http://www.chandos.net/details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN</a> 3162<br />
&#8220;Tenor Julian Gavin takes the lead of Don Carlos and is ably assisted by William Dazeley as Rodrigo, Janice Watson as Elizabeth, and Alistair Miles as Philip II and Sir John Tomlinson as the Grand Inquisitor.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: MontyNostry</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111838</link>
		<dc:creator>MontyNostry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That&#039;s fascinating about the doubles entendres in Così. They might make the piece a bit more interesting (though I love Come scoglio, preferably sung by Margaret Price).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fascinating about the doubles entendres in Così. They might make the piece a bit more interesting (though I love Come scoglio, preferably sung by Margaret Price).</p>
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		<title>By: kashania</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111836</link>
		<dc:creator>kashania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When the COC did the French version a couple of years ago, I was surprised by the extra music in the final scene. Carlos and Elisabeth are accused by the Inquisitor and Phillipe and they defend themselves, denying any wrong-doing. The extra music stopped the finale from seeming so abrupt, as it does in the Italian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the COC did the French version a couple of years ago, I was surprised by the extra music in the final scene. Carlos and Elisabeth are accused by the Inquisitor and Phillipe and they defend themselves, denying any wrong-doing. The extra music stopped the finale from seeming so abrupt, as it does in the Italian.</p>
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		<title>By: Baritenor</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111834</link>
		<dc:creator>Baritenor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was not aware of that. Thanks for the correction Amoebaguy (are you by any chance associated with Ameoba music? Because I love that store.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was not aware of that. Thanks for the correction Amoebaguy (are you by any chance associated with Ameoba music? Because I love that store.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ercole Farnese</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111833</link>
		<dc:creator>Ercole Farnese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In the original French version it is the Count of Lerma who gives Eboli the choice.  He enters the stage after the confrontation between Eboli and Elizabeth, who had a full fledged duet, which was cut right before opening night.  I saw a Turin production (in French) in 1990 with Lerma instructing Eboli.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the original French version it is the Count of Lerma who gives Eboli the choice.  He enters the stage after the confrontation between Eboli and Elizabeth, who had a full fledged duet, which was cut right before opening night.  I saw a Turin production (in French) in 1990 with Lerma instructing Eboli.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111832</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s worth looking at the changes between Choudens and the Met&#039;s version by singer:  Hoffmann is almost unchanged, he loses the reprise after the Muse&#039;s melodrama in the Epilogue; the heroines are unchanged; of the villains three are unchanged, only Coppelius gets his aria replaced with the trio, and that&#039;s his only change;  but the Muse/Nicklausse is essentially rewritten.

My suspicion is that these changes came with the decision to cast Garanca as the Muse/Nicklausse.  And that there was some idea in Gelb &amp; Levine&#039;s heads to push the expansion of the Muse/Nicklausse as the story line for the new production (and push Garanca with it).  Tommasini&#039;s column would have been about Garanca and the music that had been revived for her.  But when Garanca moved over to Carmen, that idea was dropped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s worth looking at the changes between Choudens and the Met&#8217;s version by singer:  Hoffmann is almost unchanged, he loses the reprise after the Muse&#8217;s melodrama in the Epilogue; the heroines are unchanged; of the villains three are unchanged, only Coppelius gets his aria replaced with the trio, and that&#8217;s his only change;  but the Muse/Nicklausse is essentially rewritten.</p>
<p>My suspicion is that these changes came with the decision to cast Garanca as the Muse/Nicklausse.  And that there was some idea in Gelb &amp; Levine&#8217;s heads to push the expansion of the Muse/Nicklausse as the story line for the new production (and push Garanca with it).  Tommasini&#8217;s column would have been about Garanca and the music that had been revived for her.  But when Garanca moved over to Carmen, that idea was dropped.</p>
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		<title>By: Alto</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111830</link>
		<dc:creator>Alto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Andrew Porter has been credited (or taken credit)&quot; 

That parenthetical slam is nasty and unnecessary. This was one of the most important discoveries in Verdi studies by one of the people best-equipped to appreciate and elucidate its significance, and it does not deserve a snide remark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Andrew Porter has been credited (or taken credit)&#8221; </p>
<p>That parenthetical slam is nasty and unnecessary. This was one of the most important discoveries in Verdi studies by one of the people best-equipped to appreciate and elucidate its significance, and it does not deserve a snide remark.</p>
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		<title>By: The Vicar of John Wakefield</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-3/#comment-111827</link>
		<dc:creator>The Vicar of John Wakefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Clearly the &quot;Met&quot; should do the work in good clean English, with Julian Gavin in the name-part, Rutter, Jane Irwin, Michaels-Moore, Lloyd and Tomlinson. None better!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly the &#8220;Met&#8221; should do the work in good clean English, with Julian Gavin in the name-part, Rutter, Jane Irwin, Michaels-Moore, Lloyd and Tomlinson. None better!</p>
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		<title>By: amoebaguy</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111824</link>
		<dc:creator>amoebaguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 20:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It would be ludicrous to imply that Oeser&#039;s Giulietta act is more authentic  than Kaye&#039;s, simply because there is so much in Oeser&#039;s version that doesn&#039;t come from Offenbach&#039;s sketches. Two large numbers in Oeser (including a huge ensemble in the gambling scene and a second aria for Giulietta with chorus) were drawn from &quot;Die Rheinnixen&quot;, for example. There is absolutely NO indication that Offenbach wanted to use any more music from &quot;Rheinnixen&quot; than he actually did, and no indication that, even if he had, he would have chosen these. Also, Oeser drastically re-wrote the libretto to allow for this music, used more unauthorized music from &quot;Rheinnixen&quot; to fill out the recitatives, and even wrote music of his own! Furthermore, the version of &quot;L&#039;amour luit dit: &#039;la belle&#039;&quot; used in Oeser is an earlier one which Offenbach had discarded, and even here Oeser could not leave well enough alone: he re-wrote the sung text (&quot;L&#039;amour dit: &#039;La fortune&#039;&quot;)and added a choral part which was not in Offenbach&#039;s original. In short, Oeser&#039;s Giulietta act is a concoction of his own. 
In Kaye, there is no extraneous music at all. Kaye&#039;s version of the act represents the act as it was rehearsed at the Opera-Comique before Carvalho decided to jettison the Giulietta act entirely; thusly, it reflects authentically Offenbach&#039;s final thoughts on the Giulietta act at the time of his death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be ludicrous to imply that Oeser&#8217;s Giulietta act is more authentic  than Kaye&#8217;s, simply because there is so much in Oeser&#8217;s version that doesn&#8217;t come from Offenbach&#8217;s sketches. Two large numbers in Oeser (including a huge ensemble in the gambling scene and a second aria for Giulietta with chorus) were drawn from &#8220;Die Rheinnixen&#8221;, for example. There is absolutely NO indication that Offenbach wanted to use any more music from &#8220;Rheinnixen&#8221; than he actually did, and no indication that, even if he had, he would have chosen these. Also, Oeser drastically re-wrote the libretto to allow for this music, used more unauthorized music from &#8220;Rheinnixen&#8221; to fill out the recitatives, and even wrote music of his own! Furthermore, the version of &#8220;L&#8217;amour luit dit: &#8216;la belle&#8217;&#8221; used in Oeser is an earlier one which Offenbach had discarded, and even here Oeser could not leave well enough alone: he re-wrote the sung text (&#8220;L&#8217;amour dit: &#8216;La fortune&#8217;&#8221;)and added a choral part which was not in Offenbach&#8217;s original. In short, Oeser&#8217;s Giulietta act is a concoction of his own.<br />
In Kaye, there is no extraneous music at all. Kaye&#8217;s version of the act represents the act as it was rehearsed at the Opera-Comique before Carvalho decided to jettison the Giulietta act entirely; thusly, it reflects authentically Offenbach&#8217;s final thoughts on the Giulietta act at the time of his death.</p>
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		<title>By: mrsjohnclaggart</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111823</link>
		<dc:creator>mrsjohnclaggart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111823</guid>
		<description>I think Andy Porter (who used to bring bewildered looking pick ups to the Met press room dressed in full leather) found ms in the Paris Opera back men&#039;s room and connected it with the ur-Don Carlos (why he was clutching at the old bricks therein has never been explained). Verdi cut almost an hour before the first night. He had been informed that the last trains for the suburbs from Paris would leave before the opera was over prompting an early stampede. I believe there is still some controversy over exactly what was included on opening night, and what might have been cut or changed during the first run.

Above, I didn&#039;t mean all Italians spoke the dialect of Parma, Verdi did, but those born elsewhere spoke local dialects and usually French. Literary Italian was actually a foreign language to many. Da Ponte&#039;s family  for example spoke only a Judeo-Venetian dialect but after all converted, changing their family name to the name of the Bishop who converted them he, aged 11 (!) laboriously taught himself literary Italian so he could read Dante. However he did use a Venetian pronunciation with friends which turned harmless looking Italian works into double-entendres (Harnoncourt has a chart for Cosi, showing which words when twisted slightly become very dirty indeed, Guglielmo&#039;s first act aria is evidently a riot of obscenity).

I believe the long opening chorus was first given in full at the Met. I could be wrong that Verdi cut this for the first performance in Bologna, I believe he did, but it did exist in an Italian translation. Earlier attempts at an Italian five act version either cut a big section of it, or omitted it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Andy Porter (who used to bring bewildered looking pick ups to the Met press room dressed in full leather) found ms in the Paris Opera back men&#8217;s room and connected it with the ur-Don Carlos (why he was clutching at the old bricks therein has never been explained). Verdi cut almost an hour before the first night. He had been informed that the last trains for the suburbs from Paris would leave before the opera was over prompting an early stampede. I believe there is still some controversy over exactly what was included on opening night, and what might have been cut or changed during the first run.</p>
<p>Above, I didn&#8217;t mean all Italians spoke the dialect of Parma, Verdi did, but those born elsewhere spoke local dialects and usually French. Literary Italian was actually a foreign language to many. Da Ponte&#8217;s family  for example spoke only a Judeo-Venetian dialect but after all converted, changing their family name to the name of the Bishop who converted them he, aged 11 (!) laboriously taught himself literary Italian so he could read Dante. However he did use a Venetian pronunciation with friends which turned harmless looking Italian works into double-entendres (Harnoncourt has a chart for Cosi, showing which words when twisted slightly become very dirty indeed, Guglielmo&#8217;s first act aria is evidently a riot of obscenity).</p>
<p>I believe the long opening chorus was first given in full at the Met. I could be wrong that Verdi cut this for the first performance in Bologna, I believe he did, but it did exist in an Italian translation. Earlier attempts at an Italian five act version either cut a big section of it, or omitted it.</p>
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		<title>By: iltenoredigrazia</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111821</link>
		<dc:creator>iltenoredigrazia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111821</guid>
		<description>I also heard many years ago a recording in French where Eboli was told to leave the country or go to a nunnery by Posa and not by the Queen.   I remember it well because I liked the way that instructing someone else to deal with Eboly added to the Queen&#039;s regality.  I don&#039;t remember seeing this in any of the productions I&#039;ve seen.   Was that part of a different version?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also heard many years ago a recording in French where Eboli was told to leave the country or go to a nunnery by Posa and not by the Queen.   I remember it well because I liked the way that instructing someone else to deal with Eboly added to the Queen&#8217;s regality.  I don&#8217;t remember seeing this in any of the productions I&#8217;ve seen.   Was that part of a different version?</p>
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		<title>By: iltenoredigrazia</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111820</link>
		<dc:creator>iltenoredigrazia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111820</guid>
		<description>Andrew Porter has been credited (or taken credit) for finding some music in the 1960&#039;s that was not included in the French premiere.   I believe that music was added when the RHO produced Don Carlos in French a few years ago.

My recollection is that Levine claimed to have included some not-heard-before music in the first act of the current Met&#039;s production.   (Vaguely remember it having to do with the chorus at the beginning of the Fontainebleau scene.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew Porter has been credited (or taken credit) for finding some music in the 1960&#8242;s that was not included in the French premiere.   I believe that music was added when the RHO produced Don Carlos in French a few years ago.</p>
<p>My recollection is that Levine claimed to have included some not-heard-before music in the first act of the current Met&#8217;s production.   (Vaguely remember it having to do with the chorus at the beginning of the Fontainebleau scene.)</p>
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		<title>By: Arianna a Nasso</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111817</link>
		<dc:creator>Arianna a Nasso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111817</guid>
		<description>A question for those who know more about this than me: Did Verdi himself prepare, or at least oversee, French language versions of the revisions he made to Don Carlo for Italian houses?  Or is the only French version the original one from the Paris premiere?  Can we benefit from Verdi&#039;s later musical revisions in an &quot;authentic&quot; French language version?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A question for those who know more about this than me: Did Verdi himself prepare, or at least oversee, French language versions of the revisions he made to Don Carlo for Italian houses?  Or is the only French version the original one from the Paris premiere?  Can we benefit from Verdi&#8217;s later musical revisions in an &#8220;authentic&#8221; French language version?</p>
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		<title>By: m. p. arazza</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111812</link>
		<dc:creator>m. p. arazza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 19:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111812</guid>
		<description>I think Tommasini deserves some credit for managing to stage some sort of rapprochement between Kaye and Levine.  I was amazed to see the two portrayed as practically lovey-dovey, after Kaye&#039;s recent pronouncements -- not just &quot;Balderdash,&quot; but statements like &quot;it is admirable that Maestro Levine can prepare new scores by Gunther Schuller and Elliot Carter, and (his recent serious health issues aside) shocking that for years maestro Levine has refused to restudy HOFFMANN ...  the affront to scholarship ...&quot; (etc. etc.) http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2009/12/musicologist_met_operas_new_ho.html 
Maybe Tommasini&#039;s piece does give hope for their future collaboration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Tommasini deserves some credit for managing to stage some sort of rapprochement between Kaye and Levine.  I was amazed to see the two portrayed as practically lovey-dovey, after Kaye&#8217;s recent pronouncements &#8212; not just &#8220;Balderdash,&#8221; but statements like &#8220;it is admirable that Maestro Levine can prepare new scores by Gunther Schuller and Elliot Carter, and (his recent serious health issues aside) shocking that for years maestro Levine has refused to restudy HOFFMANN &#8230;  the affront to scholarship &#8230;&#8221; (etc. etc.) <a href="http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2009/12/musicologist_met_operas_new_ho.html" rel="nofollow">http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2009/12/musicologist_met_operas_new_ho.html</a><br />
Maybe Tommasini&#8217;s piece does give hope for their future collaboration.</p>
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		<title>By: kekszakallu</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111809</link>
		<dc:creator>kekszakallu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111809</guid>
		<description>I have never been to a performance in Amsterdam (opera house or concert hall) where they did not have a standing ovation. It has become a bit of a joke ... indeed it actually reminds me of a variation of an old joke.  Police Officer: &quot;And can you tell me, sir, what you were doing on the evening of October 27th?&quot; Man being quesrioned: &quot;Ah, yes, I remember it well .. it was the night when they didn&#039;t have a standing ovation at the Concertgebouw&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never been to a performance in Amsterdam (opera house or concert hall) where they did not have a standing ovation. It has become a bit of a joke &#8230; indeed it actually reminds me of a variation of an old joke.  Police Officer: &#8220;And can you tell me, sir, what you were doing on the evening of October 27th?&#8221; Man being quesrioned: &#8220;Ah, yes, I remember it well .. it was the night when they didn&#8217;t have a standing ovation at the Concertgebouw&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111807</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111807</guid>
		<description>Hoffmann was nearly sold out a long time ago; has nothing to do with the quality of the production but because people thought they were getting more Netrebko than they finally got, and originally Villazon and Pape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoffmann was nearly sold out a long time ago; has nothing to do with the quality of the production but because people thought they were getting more Netrebko than they finally got, and originally Villazon and Pape.</p>
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		<title>By: iltenoredigrazia</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111803</link>
		<dc:creator>iltenoredigrazia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111803</guid>
		<description>Thanks mrsjohnclaggart.   That agrees with everything I thought I knew on the subject.   No wonder I love you so...  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks mrsjohnclaggart.   That agrees with everything I thought I knew on the subject.   No wonder I love you so&#8230;  <img src='http://parterre.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mrsjohnclaggart</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111802</link>
		<dc:creator>mrsjohnclaggart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111802</guid>
		<description>Verdi, like most Italians in the 19th century (I suggest reading the great, late, John Roselli&#039;s &quot;Opera in 19th century Italy&quot;, a crisp very scholarly book) spoke first a Parmigiana dialect, and then French, and only while living in Milan as a student really came to master literary Italian.

He took his French librettos VERY seriously, criticizing the pro forma translation commissioned by the cheap Paris impresario who did the &quot;French&quot; Macbeth for its bad grammar and inelegant wording. Verdi set Vepres and Don Carlos carefully and in a masterly fashion, his music sits precisely and elegantly on the French words in both scores. His understanding of musical declamation in French (listen to the King&#039;s aria in its original text)was second to none, including French born composers, several of whom were employed by the Paris Operas during the laborious preparations for Don Carlos (they included Delibes, who supervised the copying of parts).

The Italian translation of Don Carlos was/is a mess and he was unhappy about it, since it shifted the stresses in his setting to the wrong (weaker) words and is also much cruder than the French text. However, outside of France, there was more of a market for opera in Italian, so Verdi lived with the translation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Verdi, like most Italians in the 19th century (I suggest reading the great, late, John Roselli&#8217;s &#8220;Opera in 19th century Italy&#8221;, a crisp very scholarly book) spoke first a Parmigiana dialect, and then French, and only while living in Milan as a student really came to master literary Italian.</p>
<p>He took his French librettos VERY seriously, criticizing the pro forma translation commissioned by the cheap Paris impresario who did the &#8220;French&#8221; Macbeth for its bad grammar and inelegant wording. Verdi set Vepres and Don Carlos carefully and in a masterly fashion, his music sits precisely and elegantly on the French words in both scores. His understanding of musical declamation in French (listen to the King&#8217;s aria in its original text)was second to none, including French born composers, several of whom were employed by the Paris Operas during the laborious preparations for Don Carlos (they included Delibes, who supervised the copying of parts).</p>
<p>The Italian translation of Don Carlos was/is a mess and he was unhappy about it, since it shifted the stresses in his setting to the wrong (weaker) words and is also much cruder than the French text. However, outside of France, there was more of a market for opera in Italian, so Verdi lived with the translation.</p>
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		<title>By: wladek</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111801</link>
		<dc:creator>wladek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111801</guid>
		<description>Since there is so much talk over original
or not perception -there is only one
thought left  -how well do the so called artists put this work across to convince us that this is the only way ...sadly this second rate Met group do
not convince  .you can lay it all at the 
feet of Levine who has come to believe he is Levine the celebrated conductor . It all barely made average and that is  not good enough .Calleja should  not be at the Met -he is not good enough a singer
and bleets like a goat in heat . The rest come to his level and yowl for all they are worth ,and true singing goes out the window .As for ovations, present  Met audiences (lowest ever) give ovations when you just pass gass, so it is nothing to go by .It is all so second rate .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since there is so much talk over original<br />
or not perception -there is only one<br />
thought left  -how well do the so called artists put this work across to convince us that this is the only way &#8230;sadly this second rate Met group do<br />
not convince  .you can lay it all at the<br />
feet of Levine who has come to believe he is Levine the celebrated conductor . It all barely made average and that is  not good enough .Calleja should  not be at the Met -he is not good enough a singer<br />
and bleets like a goat in heat . The rest come to his level and yowl for all they are worth ,and true singing goes out the window .As for ovations, present  Met audiences (lowest ever) give ovations when you just pass gass, so it is nothing to go by .It is all so second rate .</p>
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		<title>By: iltenoredigrazia</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111800</link>
		<dc:creator>iltenoredigrazia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111800</guid>
		<description>According to Andrew Porter Verdi worked on the French libretto while composing Don Carlo.   He understood the language and made changes to the libretto just as he did with the Italian ones.  The Italian translation came afterwards.   In a New Yorker article by Porter many years ago he highlighted several instances where the music and the Italian words didn&#039;t quite go together.

Is there a basis for saying that Verdi disliked the French language?   Never heard that one before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to Andrew Porter Verdi worked on the French libretto while composing Don Carlo.   He understood the language and made changes to the libretto just as he did with the Italian ones.  The Italian translation came afterwards.   In a New Yorker article by Porter many years ago he highlighted several instances where the music and the Italian words didn&#8217;t quite go together.</p>
<p>Is there a basis for saying that Verdi disliked the French language?   Never heard that one before.</p>
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		<title>By: Krunoslav</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-2/#comment-111799</link>
		<dc:creator>Krunoslav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111799</guid>
		<description>Well, no one is forcing them to cast the nutjob Marina Polavskaya et al. 

Of course, the Met has one (1) Francophone singer in its upcoming CARMEN, so perhaps they should be doing that in Italian as well?

I can&#039;t cite chapter and verse but I do not think you are correct that Verdi preferred the Italian libretto for DON CARLO(S). Even worse is VESPRI, where the tenor addresses the soprano as &quot;O donna&quot; several times...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, no one is forcing them to cast the nutjob Marina Polavskaya et al. </p>
<p>Of course, the Met has one (1) Francophone singer in its upcoming CARMEN, so perhaps they should be doing that in Italian as well?</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t cite chapter and verse but I do not think you are correct that Verdi preferred the Italian libretto for DON CARLO(S). Even worse is VESPRI, where the tenor addresses the soprano as &#8220;O donna&#8221; several times&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Krunoslav</title>
		<link>http://parterre.com/2009/12/25/thus-spake-tommasini/comment-page-1/#comment-111797</link>
		<dc:creator>Krunoslav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://parterre.com/?p=11716#comment-111797</guid>
		<description>Well, no one is forcing them to cast the nutjob Marina Polavskaya et al. 

Of course, the Met has one (1) Francophone singer in its upcoming CARMEN, so perhaps they shpul;d be doing that in Italian as well?

I can&#039;t cite chapter and verse but I do not think you are correct that Verdi preferred the Italian libretto for DON CARLO(S). Even worse is VESPRI, where the tenor addresses the soprano as &quot;O donna&quot; several times...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, no one is forcing them to cast the nutjob Marina Polavskaya et al. </p>
<p>Of course, the Met has one (1) Francophone singer in its upcoming CARMEN, so perhaps they shpul;d be doing that in Italian as well?</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t cite chapter and verse but I do not think you are correct that Verdi preferred the Italian libretto for DON CARLO(S). Even worse is VESPRI, where the tenor addresses the soprano as &#8220;O donna&#8221; several times&#8230;</p>
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