Comments on: Dawn of the Philistines

Alto commented

Alto — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:35:16 +0000

Nice catch, Cieca. And here’s another cross-link for the web we weave: while you were in the House avoiding R.H.’s lecherous looks at your comely figure and mien, I was up the street at the opening of the NYFOS season, hearing La Burton singing Poulenc — an actual French person — and Musto.

MonkeyBoy commented

MonkeyBoy — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:24:10 +0000

Better late than never, but since I was in the audience this past Saturday, I feel compelled to comment.

#13: I am the last person who you would expect to come to NYC to see the shabby little shocker, as I much prefer my opera either obscure, contemporary or both. My rationale for coming to NYC was to see Ms. Matilla in a new production. Her qualifications to sing this role aside, I find her a fabulous singing actess, always giving 110%. I’ve seen her Fidelio, Jenufa and Salome.

As for all the hullabaloo about the new production and her ability to sing it, I thought the gals in NY just had their knickers in a bunch over nothing. It was my expectation that I would find the production engaging and sung beautifully.

Having seen the production, the oft quoted adjective ‘flat’ (not for tonality, or even the sets) describes what I saw perfectly. There truly was no there there, and there was cautiousness that pervaded the entire production.

All the detractors going on about stage directions not being followed seems rather petty. Why even bother changing the set from the original production (insert irony here)?

And although it was my opinion that Karita could do no wrong, this role really wasn’t suited to her voice. I am glad, however, to have seen the production live and in person. I just had more fun at Hair.

Overheard as we were leaving, “She was really sharp; especially during the recitative.” Nuff said.

La Cieca commented

La Cieca — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:31:29 +0000

Alto: And guess which French-language opera composer/leggy diseur was at Rosenkavalier tonight?

Alto commented

Alto — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:11:00 +0000

La Cieca @ 28: A little thread between threads here. Do you know that your Puccini scholar Deborah Burton is Amy’s older sister — the “actual soprano” who will take on the big aria from Rufus’s masterpiece at the NYCO Gala?

CerquettiFarrell commented

CerquettiFarrell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:38:47 +0000

#37 For me Falstaf is the greatest of them all, not just Joe’s. I always cry come the little scene II duets for Anne and Fenton. Amazing for a near-octagenarian to write love music that is so fresh and, well, young! And the way it is all put together, the second scene, like a scherzo with two trios. And the way one beautiful melody pops up after another, like bubbles, to pop out into thin air after a tiny developement, or none at all, like the beautiful wind theme when the girls sing “domani, si si”. Everything is so beautiful, original and sincere. Of course the Don is great too, but in a very different way. Otello I fint too unrelenting at times, and it really is a number opera: the seams show. Falstaff is symphonical from beginning to end. All three are great works of art.

MontyNostry commented

MontyNostry — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:12:04 +0000

… and Hospital. It’s late here in Europe, so please excuse me.

MontyNostry commented

MontyNostry — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:11:12 +0000

whoops, errant apostrophe … I meant ‘announcer’s’

MontyNostry commented

MontyNostry — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:10:07 +0000

Re the Celestial Voice (#32), it always makes me think of Veterinarians’ Hosptial on the Muppet Show, when the announcers voice would boom out at the end and all the characters in the operating theatre would look up and around to try and find out where it was coming from.

Don Carlo is still Boy Joe’s greatest opera, though. Way ahead of Otello and Falstaff in my book!

alex commented

alex — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:01:04 +0000

Lindoro @22 re the prostitutes:

I was actually thinking about your mentioning this when I went to see the HD telecast. My feelings are that while he ultimately gets off (sexually) on rape, he’s not adverse to owning people — and just because you’ve got prostitutes doesn’t mean they’re just 100% sexually available either. It’s fairly easy to brutalize an (unwilling) prostitute, too, which was hinted at when Scarpia threw when on the ground.

An analogy that came to mind: just because someone finds ultimately (sexual) fulfillment with another participant doesn’t suddenly make masturbation unappealing.

CruzSF commented

CruzSF — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:53:54 +0000

CerquettiFarrell: Thanks for the recommendations at 30.

At 31: I was confused by Falstaff. LOL. I thought I was missing something so I didn’t argue.

CruzSF commented

CruzSF — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:45:39 +0000

CerquettiFarrell: No offense taken here. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written above @29 re: Tosca. One of the things I find is a weak point at the opening of Act III is precisely what you identify in general: it feels like a film soundtrack.

I’ve heard friends object to the baby killing elements of Jenufa and Trovatore, which is the reason I listed them as potential examples of “bad taste.”

Re: Tosca, I agree with you that as written, the lead characters don’t have much external life, are not full and rounded characters. I’ve come to see this as a benefit (and note that I didn’t view it this way at first) in that it mostly succeeds, for me, on the singers’ ability to act. They have to bring it, as the kids say, inventing a background for the characters. This allows Tosca to take on different colors and shadings with each cast change.

The opera probably works well enough if the singers don’t make that investment, because of Puccini’s directness — the production I saw live had a Tosca who brought it, a Scarpia who might have misplaced it, and a Cavaradossi who left it at home. That night, the machine rolled along well enough for me to have fun.

brooklynpunk commented

brooklynpunk — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:29:05 +0000

LA Cieca/28:

THANKS SO MUCH FOR PROVIDING THE TRANSLATION OF “LA TOSCA”…!!

Will commented

Will — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:23:19 +0000

Quoth CerquettiFarrell: and then you have the celestial voice, not one of Verdi’s most felicitious ideas. The Konwitschny production was shockingly successful in that respect, treating Verdi’s setting with due (for me) irony.

I wonder if the direction in the libretto that the voice is totally disregarded by those on stage who go about their appreciation of watching people burned to death ISN’T ironic.

Quoth LaCieca: And don’t get me started on that roaring fireplace in the middle of July!)

Cieca cara, the Battle of Marengo took place on June 14 and, in history as in the play and opera, a false account of Napoleon’s defeat reached Rome several hours before the truth.

Actually, my comment is just nit-picking because one wouldn’t want a roaring fire in June in Rome any more than in July. The moment the curtain rose on act 2 during the Zeffirelli production’s premiere, I knew immediately he was going as usual for picturesque effect, with no interest in the reality of the situation, as usual.

CerquettiFarrell commented

CerquettiFarrell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:16:46 +0000

Sorry in #29 I meant Faust, not Falstaff, of course

CerquettiFarrell commented

CerquettiFarrell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:15:01 +0000

BTW La Fiamma had a great recording on Hungaroton with a really great cast: Ilona Tokody, Klara TaKacs, Peter Kelen and Josef Gregor. The soprano role is really a Puccini part and Tokody sings it admirably. Gardelli is great in this repertoire. I don’t think this is available at the moment, which is a pity. Perhaps Brilliant will re-issue it, they have us in our debt for restoring so many great recordings – the Keilberth Frau is just out.
There’s also another very interesting Respighi opera – La Campagna Sommersa – there’s a very good recording on Accord with a singer I love, Laura Aikin.

CerquettiFarrell commented

CerquettiFarrell — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:08:53 +0000

CruzSF #25,26, thanks for the heartfelt comments. I hope I haven’t been impolite in my reactions to Tosca. You are absolutely right about the compactness and sense of architecture. By bad taste I don’t necessarily mean the subject matter. So Cosi is irrelevant. But Trovatore I prefer to see as more classical, because of the construction and the bel-canto modelling. Most of the melodies have something Mozartean about them (especially tacea la notte, il balen and of course Ma tu ben mio). The purple passages work along with the melodic fecundity, and the psychological insight is considerable (the Azucena monologue) so I tend to regard Trovatore as a very great work of art, working through the stylistical restrictions. I don’t see anything vulgar about Jenufa. Falstaff is great fun, grand guignol like Gioconda but still very entertaining and the melodic invention is staggering.
By bad taste I mean that I don’t mind there being a torture scene in Tosca, but the composer’s decision to stir your blood by using a symphonic development of a showpiece tune is very, very vulgar by the very conception of it. Extremely manipulative I think. Scarpia’s murder isn’t – this is theatre music pure and simple, and it works, and doesn’t offend me in a similar way because it is direct and brutal.
On the whole I think Tosca lacks, for me, psychological insight and subtext. It sounds like a major composer writing a film score. Nothing wrong about that, but in opera I expect something more. When I think of Don Carlo, for example, the characters live, for me, a very full life, regardless of various interpretations. They live within the score because Verdi loved them and lived them through his music. I don’t feel that kind of emotional commitment from Puccini in Tosca, so he reverts to piling effect upon effect. By the end of the 1st act the level of hysteria is so high that there’s nowhere to go by the time you reach high drama. With the character of Butterfly, as a contrast, I do feel that there’s total emotional immersion on behalf of the composer.

La Cieca commented

La Cieca — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:03:08 +0000

While we're on the subject, cher public, you might be interested in the source material for the Tosca libretto, the Sardou play, conveniently translated and annotated by Deborah Burton: La Tosca, Act I La Tosca, Act II La Tosca, Act III La Tosca, Act IV La Tosca, Act V

CruzSF commented

CruzSF — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:55:18 +0000

La Fiamma seems to recall Trovatore. Given how often the Verdi work is performed, I don’t know why the Respighi one is hard to find. I’d give it a chance, certainly.

CruzSF commented

CruzSF — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:35:32 +0000

One more thing: wouldn't a person miss out on half of the extant operas if he or she avoided the ones that displayed "bad taste"? Cosi and Trovatore, Jenufa and Faust, for starters... But to paraphrase former President Clinton: it depends on what your definition of bad taste is.

CruzSF commented

CruzSF — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:17:34 +0000

CerquettiFarrell: I can only speak to my own feelings about Tosca, so bear the following in mind:

I think it’s a great starter opera. I’ve only been listening to it for 8 months and one of the things I like about it — or liked about it — is that I always knew where I was in the story, even before I ever read the libretto. The listener can’t get lost, even not knowing the language. Now that I’m past that early stage with it and know the story, I like that it is so compact and direct. There’s very little, if any, wasted space. (I’m still not sure about the opening of Act III — I find the pre-dawn music to be filler but lovers of this work are beginning to persuade me that this music serves the overall purpose of the opera.)

I now view Tosca as comfort food. It’s not the deepest, most psychologically probing opera out there, but when I want to hear some music well-married to its subject, and I’m not in the mood for some heavy thinking, I put it on.

Maybe in 5, 10, 20 years, I’ll have “outgrown” it. But for now, I just kick back and enjoy the ride.

I know nothing about La Fiamma and had to look it up to know what you were writing about. I have no idea why this opera hasn’t become embedded in the standard repertoire, but I’m sure other commenters here will share their thoughts.