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If they are Guelfis, I am a Ghibellini.
Where is Piero Guelfi with Erasmo Ghiglia????
What a difference…
I saw Aida last Friday and I can honestly say that, even though he has a large voice, Guelfi couldn’t be able to give a better performance with any other conductor. The problem is himself, not the conductor, even Gatti. The conducting was sure unbalanced, but Guelfi was in very poor shape since the first note. In the meantime, no acting skills whatsoever. There was not one moment when he acted a bit. He was completely out of character.
I disagree about the acting. I thought Guelfi was quite solid in that department. It was the voice that was lacking.
The Marschallin is generally not right for a lyric soprano voice, and Fleming is a lyric — the more lyric her role the better! However, she has learned to project the middle voice very well, and as long as you don’t mind a “pretty” lyric sound in the Marschallin, fine! I remember Steber (another lyric), at the Met — after many performances in the role, she still could not project the necessary strength in the mid-voice. Fleming has unusually good German diction for an American singer, and that helps her in this almost-sprechstimme role, almost, I said. I too am much looking forward to her Met performances – and I continue to be in a state of amazement at how well and effective her voice sounds for her age. It is truly remarkable. My preference in sopranos for the role, however, are along the line of Jurinac or Crespin, or even a high mezzo; I keep hearing talk of Susan Graham soon to try that role. I know Helen Vanni (a high mezzo), had quite a success in the role at San Francisco (Helen grew up in a German family in Iowa!), and the right kind of German-speaking high mezzo should do well in the part. The Ariadne Composer is another R. Strauss role that in the right hands, can thrive as mezzo or soprano. The best voice for the Marschallin is of soprano color but with some weight, and in that regard Sena Jurinac was unmatched in the role in my experience. Other really good ones: Arlene Saunders, later Rysanek, Mariquita Moll had the right voice if not the brain; command of the German language is so important in the role. I think that is one of the principal reasons, plus her German, that Lotte Lehmann was so successful in the role — that plus her strong command of sentiment.
jim/sfe
There is rather a long an illustrious tradition of pure lyric Marschallins though, is there not? It’s fine to express a preference, but to state that the role is not right for a lyric voice seems a bit silly when so many have had great successes with the role.
Personally, I find it’s one of those roles that can be taken by pretty much any kind of voice, and assuming she’s a good artist with good collaborators, you’ll get something worth hearing at the end. I enjoy the Marschallins of Gwyneth Jones, Kiri Te Kanawa, Renee Fleming, Christa Ludwig, Astrid Varnay and Maria Reining, one way or another.
wrong thread gents
I was perplexed about that, too, rommie. These days, it’s easy for me to be convinced of anything…..so thanks for helping me feel a tad saner for a bit longer.
OT/ – Check out Opera Chic’s news for some breaking news.
I’m so verklempt; make that check out Opera Chic’s BLOG for some breaking news.
i just got back from the NYPL talk that Gelb and bondy were in:
Peter Gelb is a fu*king hypocrite.
me too
hypocrite? hows that?
I now know why Bondy’s Tosca is so lame and pointless; he is lame and pointless. Sher sounds earnest but overly seduced by lofty artsy farts that do not bear any serious scrutiny. Chereau was the only real adult of the three; he seemed to wish he were elsewhere.
Right you are, rommie; I obviously meant that
threat for the other in-progress discussion of
the Baden-Baden Der R., etc. My apology for
confusing the thread.
Squirrel…and.. Rommie:
..DETAILS, PLEASE..!!!
..it’s gonna be weeks before this makes it to the nypl.org site..inquiring minds wanna know… now…!
I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but this beholder beheld a very slick host Holdengräber trying to make an entertaining and witty (he is evidently viennese, and it showed) between these very different men, two of whom speak quite halting english.
They talked a lot about scandal, starting by asking each whether they court scandal in their work (all replied no, they try to connect, not offend or shock). My impression was that all three were relatively poor communicators, and that the problem was in fact not the language barrier but a rather lofty and fuzzy idea of what their goals with opera are.
It was interesting to realize that all three come from the world of theater and are not opera fans. Sher proclaimed ignorance of tosca until last week. I was reminded of Alex Ross’s line from many months back, in which he said that directors should be asked before directing an opera: “Do you like opera?” and “Do you like THIS opera?”
I was pleased that Sher and Chereau seemed truly inspired by the fact of music being active, and being measured and drawn up and notated, giving theater an additional realm or dimension. Chereau rightly states that his goal in doing opera is to make the piece happen beyond mere theater, using the element of mensuration in the music. Chereau won on all counts for sounding intelligent and non bullshit.
Sher was well spoken but sounded pretty lost in bullshit. He wants us to be challenged to “experience opera politically, by rediscovering spacial relationships” adding that “politics is spacial”. I didn’t get this at all, and I was glad that his productions are not nearly as weird and theoretical as his words.
Bondy talked a lot but honestly I couldn’t understand much of what he was saying. I mean, i understood the words, but I really had no idea what he meant. Maybe Tosca failed because he’s senile?
Gelb was on-message and clear: There will eventually be new productions of all the Met repertoire because there must be. And some will be successful and some will not, but art must move forward and be remade for each era. I thought he seemed totally reasonable and convincing.
I was most appalled by the audience, who ask unimaginably dumb things like “Why do you have to make new-fangled opera productions if the old ones were so nice?” To which one can only sigh in disappointment. Several people, with thinly veiled contempt, asked variants of this question.
Most interesting was the question “What about the people who come to the Met and see the new, weird production but never got to see the ‘original’??” I was surprised nobody said it – so I will now: There is and never was an original!! People, there is NO “original” Tosca. None.
Bondy also gets points for absolutely denying any interest in a rivalry between him and Zeffirelli, saying the Media forced the juxtaposition. He did call him an idiot for acting as though he owned the opera Tosca and the right to claim its authenticity, but I thought it classy of Bondy to make clear he was not creating his version in some way as a response to Zeff.
How’s that for a succinct summary? Hope LaC does not mind ….
*quotations are all paraphrased, as I did not take notes.
PS How’s this for a vulture’s feast?: http://www.observer.com/2009/theater/mets-messy-season-limps-third-week-boos
Squirrel/17:
good work,squirrel…thanks…!
squirrel..
i was the one who asked about the boheme, which im basing my gelb opinion on..
he keeps talking about how they need to change and update and give new productiosn bcause its their responsibility as an institution. And yet they have NO plans at all to change boheme yet, coz they know they will be murdered once they change it. They are aware of it. They keep talking about how Tosca was 25 years old and was too old, and yet the boheme is almost 30 yeas old, and yet, no mention of changing it. All Gelb said was “all productions at the Met will be changed”
My favorite question was : “Mr Gelb, I was wondering what your opinion is on the similarities between musical theatre and oepra were, and how come the met doesnt present more musical theatre-ish works?” (im paraphrasing)… My thoughts exactly… Ive been having discussions with several musicologist friends of mine and there’s pretty much a consensus that musical theatre is kind of the American Operatic Tradition… but thats a topic for another day.
What I hated was the fact that the social climber in me felt the compulsion to shake Gelb’s hand as well as Bondy’s and say that I initially did not like it but now I do. FUCK.
Bondy said he did not update at all. He kept saying his production was in period…
thanx, yer welcome
OH I missed this post. You must have posted simultaneously with my followup (19). Sorry to be out of touch!
1. I don’t think Gelb is being disingenuous about Boheme, I think he truly would like to change it but knows the backlash would be severe. Honestly I thought the question was weird, it seemed to intentionally put him off his guard, but what is the point of that? You’re being a little “gotcha” here, w/ all due respect.
2. You are right, I wanted to tell Bondy off for saying his opera was in period. Scandinavian Coffee Tables and red velour sofas were not, as I recall, in the Palazzo Farnese in the 18th Century.
youre right squirrel.. i did want to call him on his bluff… if you say u have a responsibility to have new productions (And! as bondy said it, not be lazy…) then change the boheme! it’s gorgeous and beautiful and marvelous, but its old, and it needs to be freshened up, as much as i love it.
sounds like your pet issue.
my personal grudge is that they have not mounted a new production of Moses und Aron in like 15 seasons! I’m going on a hunger strike tomorrow if they don’t announce a new one for 2011.
Moses got its first Met production in 1999, with a revival in 2003. It was at that time regarded as a very tough sell, but maybe the audience has grown up some since then.
I was joking, however I’m apparently not very funny…
the next step for M&A at the Met is the garbage dump I reckon. Thanks for clarifying though!
when i came up to shake his hand i could feel him controlling himself from slapping me in the face.
id be ok if they kept boheme for 10 more years! BUT if he’s going to go off about the need to mount new productions for works which are old then go for this one! (which if im not mistaken is one of the oldest in the current rep?)
he’s phased out Tosca, next season will be Traviata, but no new boheme?? i just find it inconsistent. and frankly, i dont like gelb that much. hopefully (and watch out for my huge delusional comment thats about to come) he doesn’t issue a bull that will fire me from my internship! lol
Rommie, you are on your own with the internship and the asskissing… but I would just say that whether you like Gelb much, he can’t remake all the productions at once. If I were to start remaking things I might have tried Boheme before the Tosca, but these programming issues are far more complicated than you suggest.
Bondy said, interestingly, that he never expected his Tosca to last at the met 20 years like Zeff’s did… I found that thought provoking… Did the traditionalist public react badly to the Tosca because they assumed it would be on stage for the next 20 years? If presented with a new model, in which productions are remade more frequently, would it have gone down smoother?
Bondy also said that productions don’t stay on stage so long in Europe as they do here. SOME DO! The Vienna Rosenkavalier is vintage 1969, “Frei nach einer Inszenierung von Otto Schenk, neu geprobt, neu Musikalisch ausgearbeitet” is how it gets billed these days.
well also, i was actually wanting an answer how they were tackling the matter of replacing the production since it seemed to me they were being candid about things which might have been a wrong impression.
they were talking about how 25 is too old an age, well what about 30? THAT’s old! plus, this boheme is more revered than Tosca, i would say. I was really wondering how they were tackling that. but maybe that was too much of an intrusive question for a library talk with the public
Yes, I would say!
well my bad then.
i guess i wont be working at the met anytime soon. HA
but seriously…
what will happen to La Boheme at the Met? the Met Futures site has nothing on a new production.
it’s going to be there for another 15 years, and then it’s going to be redone by Otto Schenk.
Rommie & squirrel, you guys kill me! (I mean that nicely.) It’s almost like being there while you have the dialogue. Thanks to both of you for your reports.
What is he difference between an opera house and an insane asylum?
In the asylum the director is sane…..
#6, I think that the first marschallin was margarete siems, a zerbinetta etc. If strauss wanted a heavier voice, he had plenty of dramatics to choose from.
The Met BOHEME dates from 1982 and is far from being the company’s oldest production.
The would be the Zeffirelli (!) FALSTAFF, which dates from 1964 in the old house. It was recently refurbished.
The third production seen at Lincoln Center was used just last season; LA GIOCONDA. Though the costumes were redone in the 1970s or 80s because of a warehouse fire.
DER ROSENKAVALIER dates from 1968, also rebuilt, and is arguably a more succesful production than the BOHEME.
Gelb is right: nothing should last forever. But there is no set-rule about when something is to be replaced. There are too many factors involved, including occasion, singers, designer, director, etc.
Bayreuth retained the original production of PARSIFAL for 50 years! And Wieland Wagner’s famous 1951 staging lasted til 1973, 7 years after he had died. Wisely, even these “hallowed” productions were eventually replaced.
@37 qualorribilepeccato : “I think the first marschallin was margarete siems, a zerbinetta, etc….”
And it’s at that “etc.” where the confusion may start; she was also the first Chrysothemis, and sang Aida, Sieglinde, and Isolde as well as coloratura roles.
Right, Graciella–they had TECHNIQUES then! Lili Lehmann sang high coloratura parts, Norma, Isolde and the Ring. Lillian Nordica was a Queen of the Night and an Isolde and the soprano in the MET’s first Verdi Requiem. Several others had that dazzling ability to run the gamut of fachs. Part of that, I suspect, was that the massive, relatively inflexible dramatic soprano voice (the Nilsson/Varnay type) didn’t exist then and wasn’t expected. People know how to listen then and wanted good singing, not brute volume.
As to the oldest productions in the MET’s current stock, I would propose Adriana Lecouvreur. It was tarted up, as the Victorians would say, quite a bit last season, but the core remains from its January 1, 1963 premiere, 46-1/2 years ago.
In his sneering, dismissive review of the opera itself, Irving Kolodin opined the money spent on the orchestral parts to be a complete waste as surely very few MET musicians would ever play the vapid, superficial music again. Wrong! Does anyone want to predict with certainty that we won’t ever see this production again?
Will, it’s true that they took on a more diverse range of roles back in the day, but have you actually heard Lilli Lehmann? It isn’t terribly pleasant, and not just for reasons of style which has obviously changed a great deal since she was active. It doesn’t sound like a particularly impressive techinque as we understand the word today, more just a certain facility, coupled with the fact that, as you rightly point out, audience expectations regarding the type of voice they expected to hear in a specific role simply did not exist.
Cocky, I have good transcriptions of all of her extant recordings. Yes indeed, I have heard her recordings–it has to be kept in mind that she recorded at an advanced age, 58 and 59, after a very long and varied career. It would be wonderful if she could have been recorded fifteen or twenty years earlier but that’s not what happened.
The same is true of Tamagno and several others of that era–the recording process captured them past their primes. But there are wonderful things to be heard, technical facility and an approach to singing that can easily be discerned even if, as is certainly true in some–not all–of Lehmann’s records, the tone is worn or breathing effortful. Consider, though, that if all we had of Callas was only what got recorded in the mid- to late-1960s, her reputation simply as a singer would be severely compromised, too.
Apologies and correction–the 2 I had intended to strike didn’t “print”:
The premiere of the Adriana Lecouvreur production was January 21, 1963, not January 1.
I know what you mean, Will, but I think it is still possible to get a pretty good idea of the voice, because any informed listener stands a decent chance of identifying what is down to the ravages of age and what the singing may have been like without those issues. Sure, I acknowledge that it’s guess work, but guess work bourne of experience and therefore not completely meaningless. And I still contend that your idea that Lilli Lehmann and her ilk really knew what technique was, and the implication that later singers didn’t or don’t, isn’t supported by the recorded evidence, and that in addition, a greater variety of roles was possible not due to better technique, but because the audience simply didn’t have the baggage or weight of expectation and would not therefore say she can’t sing Isolde, she’s a Constanze, or whatever.
Of course, it depends on what your definition of good technique is – a very divisive and entirely seperate issue, I guess.
Mea culpa all over the place.
My good friend Will (we go waaaayyy back) correctly points out that the longest lived production in recent MET repertory isn’t the 1964 FALSTAFF, but the 1963 ADRIANA LECOUVREUR.
Rudy Bing would turn over in his grave if he knew the show was still in use. He did it back then because Tebaldi demanded it or else she wouldn’t come to NY at all. And then she got ill, and is he put it, “I had to do the damned thing without her”.
It hasn’t been revived all that often, but I daresay we’ll get another go-round of this 40+ year old sets the next time some aging diva requests it.
The current production of Adriana Lecouvreur has been performed 70 times in New York and on tour since its 1963 premiere. The premiere production in which Caruso sang was dropped after only 3 performances, for a MET total of 70.
Kolodin whose review of the premiere of the current production reveals that he hated every aspect of it except Franco Corelli, mentions that after plans to have Cecil Beaton design it fell through, Bing decided to copy a then-current Naples production. That production is probably the one that Olivero (subbing for Tebaldi), Corelli, Bastianini and Simionato were performing in the famous, incendiary “pirate” that is the best possible realization of the opera many of us can imagine.
Typos! “for a Met total of 73.”