Comments on: it’s a return! http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/ where opera is king and you, the readers, are queens Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:57:34 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72685 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:05:59 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72685 CF: I agree with you that musicianship is much more about inhabiting the music and less about high notes or infallible pitch. I'm certainly amazed by the ability to nail a high note without scooping or swooping, but I'm a firm believer in acting being an important of singing opera. I've watched the Brahms clip multiple times today and each time I've been riveted. Lehmann demonstrates convincingly here that acting is also a part of lieder. CF: I agree with you that musicianship is much more about inhabiting the music and less about high notes or infallible pitch. I’m certainly amazed by the ability to nail a high note without scooping or swooping, but I’m a firm believer in acting being an important of singing opera.

I’ve watched the Brahms clip multiple times today and each time I’ve been riveted. Lehmann demonstrates convincingly here that acting is also a part of lieder.

]]> CerquettiFarrell commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72679 CerquettiFarrell Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:10:42 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72679 Also, I thought about this thing a lot when listening to many singers: the true artists tend to have some kind psychic ability - they manage to transfer to the audience their idea of how the music should go, even if sometimes their means are fallible. It happens often with Madame C: even at her worst, she is so highly aware of what she wants to do in the music, and it transpires even if from above G the sound is unbearable, and of course she sings off key sometimes, but mentally she's never off key, if it makes sense (to me it does) Also, I thought about this thing a lot when listening to many singers: the true artists tend to have some kind psychic ability – they manage to transfer to the audience their idea of how the music should go, even if sometimes their means are fallible. It happens often with Madame C: even at her worst, she is so highly aware of what she wants to do in the music, and it transpires even if from above G the sound is unbearable, and of course she sings off key sometimes, but mentally she’s never off key, if it makes sense (to me it does)

]]> CerquettiFarrell commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72677 CerquettiFarrell Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:55:19 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72677 Thanks, CruzSF, the Brahms clip moves me everytime I see it, there's so much art there, yet such artlessness, if it makes sense, and yes, the transformation is palpable, endearing. I'm particularly fond of her expression during the piano ritornello, there's so much MUSIC inside that woman. And the way she immediately starts singing and the pianist obeys, spellbound. And if I may, Lehmann's singing is a good vehicle to demonstrate what I'm incessantly referring to as "harmonically-aware singing". Notice at the "ich sah' erst" on 01:10 the way the color changes because the harmony changes too. Then on 1:20 there's a reassessment of the original tonality and likewise she strengthens the line. Likewise the way she listens to the piano as it syncopates in parallel to the vocal line, so that the voice and piano become a true duet - 01:26. That's the kind of musicianship I cherish. Who cares about high notes or that kind of stuff when somebody takes the trouble to make some real music - I know I don't! Thanks, CruzSF, the Brahms clip moves me everytime I see it, there’s so much art there, yet such artlessness, if it makes sense, and yes, the transformation is palpable, endearing. I’m particularly fond of her expression during the piano ritornello, there’s so much MUSIC inside that woman. And the way she immediately starts singing and the pianist obeys, spellbound.

And if I may, Lehmann’s singing is a good vehicle to demonstrate what I’m incessantly referring to as “harmonically-aware singing”.
Notice at the “ich sah’ erst” on 01:10 the way the color changes because the harmony changes too. Then on 1:20 there’s a reassessment of the original tonality and likewise she strengthens the line. Likewise the way she listens to the piano as it syncopates in parallel to the vocal line, so that the voice and piano become a true duet – 01:26.
That’s the kind of musicianship I cherish. Who cares about high notes or that kind of stuff when somebody takes the trouble to make some real music – I know I don’t!

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72652 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:27:27 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72652 CF, I'm working my way through your list of YouTube videos. The Lotte Lehmann master class is so impressive. Whether her voice is too creaky or not, her transformation from late Lehmann to young [girl] in facial expression, body movement, and vocal color is simply amazing. CF, I’m working my way through your list of YouTube videos. The Lotte Lehmann master class is so impressive. Whether her voice is too creaky or not, her transformation from late Lehmann to young [girl] in facial expression, body movement, and vocal color is simply amazing.

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72646 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:04:26 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72646 CerquettiFarrell, you really came through. Thank you so much! CerquettiFarrell, you really came through. Thank you so much!

]]> Sanford commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72645 Sanford Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:00:36 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72645 Someone slap my face and call me Miss Marmelstein. I'm done. Someone slap my face and call me Miss Marmelstein. I’m done.

]]> Sanford commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72644 Sanford Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:56:28 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72644 I have to take a moment to sing a showtune. You all discuss. I'll be right back. I have to take a moment to sing a showtune. You all discuss. I’ll be right back.

]]> Sanford commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72643 Sanford Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:55:25 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72643 Barbra Joan Streisand is candy (and the sun's a ball of buttah!); she was no blemish on the nose of life's complexion. And couldn't you just scoop up Omar and eat him with a spoon? Barbra Joan Streisand is candy (and the sun’s a ball of buttah!); she was no blemish on the nose of life’s complexion. And couldn’t you just scoop up Omar and eat him with a spoon?

]]> Sanford commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72641 Sanford Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:49:08 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72641 To me, the two greatest lieder singers, and admittedly it's not my area of expertise, were Elly Ameling and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPpII4xTVrc httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmm_hcGvQ8k httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cOXbQSEQ0M I'm also rather fond of Peter Schreier httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIje_MJmfY To me, the two greatest lieder singers, and admittedly it’s not my area of expertise, were Elly Ameling and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.


I’m also rather fond of Peter Schreier

]]> rapt commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-7/#comment-72640 rapt Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:58:02 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72640 CerquettiFarrell, thanks so much for introducing me to Kuhmeier. Love that clip! CerquettiFarrell, thanks so much for introducing me to Kuhmeier. Love that clip!

]]> CerquettiFarrell commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72638 CerquettiFarrell Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:13:46 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72638 #56, sorry you are VERY right. I normally don't just berate without providing explanations. Bascially I think Fleming's Schubert lacks a sense of spontaeniety and naturaleness. One of the best Lieder recitals to be had, I think, is Irmgard Seefried's double album on DG http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Lieder/dp/B0015RR4XI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1251975272&sr=8-1 another one is her Testament recital comprised of Mozart concert arias and Lieder: http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Johannes-Brahms/dp/B000003XI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975323&sr=8-1 Aly Ameling, as mentioned before, is exquisite in Schubert et al, I think her best album is probably the one with Jorg Demus on DHM : http://www.amazon.com/Elly-Ameling-Schubert-Schumann-Songs/dp/B000001TWU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1251975395&sr=1-1 and, for me, practically all ot Lotte Lehmann's late Lieder records, which I prise for the sincerity, warmth and still spectacular voice. There are all to be had on Naxos historical, including a near-complete Winterreise, split between the various volumes, but then it is highly addictive: buying one, you might want to have them all. here she is, croaky voice and all, yet incomparable in a Brahms Lied during a masterclass: httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHyXlpeCmyw I'm not much of a Schwarzkopf fan: I can't deny the intelligence and the hard work behind it all, also the sheer beauty of the sound, but it often sounds (to me) contrived and devoid of naturaleness. DFD I like his younger, more deeper-voiced self. I'd also recommend most of Janet Baker's Lied albums, especially Brahms and Mahler, two composers in which she particularly excelled. French melodie: Suzanne Danco, Gerard Souzay, and for me the greatest: Charles Panzera. Modern singers: I love Ian Bostridge's first Schubert recital with the patrician Julius Drake. It still has the best Im Fruhling (my favourite Schubert song) and Ganymed. http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-25-Lieder-Franz/dp/B000A2H7PY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975879&sr=1-8 baritones: most impressive nowadays is probably Christian Gerhaher. Love the voice, attitude, diction and discretion: http://www.amazon.com/Melancholie-Liederkreis-op-39-Christian-Gerhaher/dp/B000WGWW9Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975925&sr=1-1 Bernarda Fink is very impressive in Brahms and Schumann. Her Schubert and Berlioz I found pretty bland. Grip any Lorraine Hunt recital you see - especially the one just out on HMF from Ravinia. Undoubtedly to my mind, she was the best vocal artist of the last 20-30 years. The most generous and warm and totally devoid of any mannerism whatsoever. http://www.amazon.com/Recital-Lorraine-Hunt-Lieberson-Ravinia/dp/B001L15C5K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976026&sr=1-1 This recital has the best Von ewige Liebe that I have ever heard. Also a wonderful Abendempfindung. I don't see any really interesting new sopranos in this field, though the radiant Genia Kuhmeier might prove to be a new Seefried. httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cVF8H6Ils Anja Harteros is also a responsive, individual artist. I love her recent 4 last songs, one of the most individual and warm. French song has Veronique Gens in a beautiful recital that "grows on you": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cVF8H6Ils and her Nuits d'ete is great too: http://www.amazon.com/V%C3%A9ronique-Gens-Berlioz-Nuits-Cl%C3%A9opatre/dp/B00005A9ND/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976361&sr=1-1 And Bartoli as a song artist is not to be ignored. Her French album one of the vocal glories of the gramophone. If only she's concentrate on this kind of rep instead of her quirky operatic appearances! #56, sorry you are VERY right. I normally don’t just berate without providing explanations. Bascially I think Fleming’s Schubert lacks a sense of spontaeniety and naturaleness.
One of the best Lieder recitals to be had, I think, is Irmgard Seefried’s double album on DG
http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Lieder/dp/B0015RR4XI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1251975272&sr=8-1

another one is her Testament recital comprised of Mozart concert arias and Lieder:
http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Johannes-Brahms/dp/B000003XI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975323&sr=8-1

Aly Ameling, as mentioned before, is exquisite in Schubert et al, I think her best album is probably the one with Jorg Demus on DHM :
http://www.amazon.com/Elly-Ameling-Schubert-Schumann-Songs/dp/B000001TWU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1251975395&sr=1-1

and, for me, practically all ot Lotte Lehmann’s late Lieder records, which I prise for the sincerity, warmth and still spectacular voice. There are all to be had on Naxos historical, including a near-complete Winterreise, split between the various volumes, but then it is highly addictive: buying one, you might want to have them all.

here she is, croaky voice and all, yet incomparable in a Brahms Lied during a masterclass:

I’m not much of a Schwarzkopf fan: I can’t deny the intelligence and the hard work behind it all, also the sheer beauty of the sound, but it often sounds (to me) contrived and devoid of naturaleness. DFD I like his younger, more deeper-voiced self.

I’d also recommend most of Janet Baker’s Lied albums, especially Brahms and Mahler, two composers in which she particularly excelled.

French melodie: Suzanne Danco, Gerard Souzay, and for me the greatest: Charles Panzera.

Modern singers: I love Ian Bostridge’s first Schubert recital with the patrician Julius Drake. It still has the best Im Fruhling (my favourite Schubert song) and Ganymed.
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-25-Lieder-Franz/dp/B000A2H7PY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975879&sr=1-8

baritones: most impressive nowadays is probably Christian Gerhaher. Love the voice, attitude, diction and discretion:
http://www.amazon.com/Melancholie-Liederkreis-op-39-Christian-Gerhaher/dp/B000WGWW9Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975925&sr=1-1

Bernarda Fink is very impressive in Brahms and Schumann. Her Schubert and Berlioz I found pretty bland.

Grip any Lorraine Hunt recital you see -- especially the one just out on HMF from Ravinia. Undoubtedly to my mind, she was the best vocal artist of the last 20-30 years. The most generous and warm and totally devoid of any mannerism whatsoever.

http://www.amazon.com/Recital-Lorraine-Hunt-Lieberson-Ravinia/dp/B001L15C5K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976026&sr=1-1

This recital has the best Von ewige Liebe that I have ever heard. Also a wonderful Abendempfindung.

I don’t see any really interesting new sopranos in this field, though the radiant Genia Kuhmeier might prove to be a new Seefried.

Anja Harteros is also a responsive, individual artist. I love her recent 4 last songs, one of the most individual and warm.

French song has Veronique Gens in a beautiful recital that “grows on you”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cVF8H6Ils

and her Nuits d’ete is great too:
http://www.amazon.com/V%C3%A9ronique-Gens-Berlioz-Nuits-Cl%C3%A9opatre/dp/B00005A9ND/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976361&sr=1-1

And Bartoli as a song artist is not to be ignored. Her French album one of the vocal glories of the gramophone. If only she’s concentrate on this kind of rep instead of her quirky operatic appearances!

]]> manou commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72637 manou Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:36:33 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72637 Apologies for dropping an H - Rosthchild. Apologies for dropping an H – Rosthchild.

]]> manou commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72636 manou Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:18:47 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72636 @QPF 25 : not sure why you would like to know, but this is what I can make out (obviously the premiere of Funny Girl in Paris) : (numbers refer to white numbers on screen) 02:41:15 : Michele Morgan dancing with her husband Gerard Oury 02:45:06 : Streisand with the Baron Guy de Rotschild 02:54:23 : obviously Omar Sharif 03:04:15 : lady in mink and Gunter Sachs (Brigitte Bardot's then husband) 03:06:16 : Maurice Chevalier and BS 03:15:01 : Daniel Gelin 04:37:23 : this one is a poser because it looks exactly like Karim Aga Khan, but if it is the same man who is escorting her just before, it ain't him 04:50:15 : OS 04:55:23 : more Gerard Oury and Michele Morgan 05:11:22 : Eddie Barclay (French music mogul) Hope this helps... @QPF 25 : not sure why you would like to know, but this is what I can make out (obviously the premiere of Funny Girl in Paris) :

(numbers refer to white numbers on screen)

02:41:15 : Michele Morgan dancing with her husband Gerard Oury
02:45:06 : Streisand with the Baron Guy de Rotschild
02:54:23 : obviously Omar Sharif
03:04:15 : lady in mink and Gunter Sachs (Brigitte Bardot’s then husband)
03:06:16 : Maurice Chevalier and BS
03:15:01 : Daniel Gelin
04:37:23 : this one is a poser because it looks exactly like Karim Aga Khan, but if it is the same man who is escorting her just before, it ain’t him
04:50:15 : OS
04:55:23 : more Gerard Oury and Michele Morgan
05:11:22 : Eddie Barclay (French music mogul)

Hope this helps…

]]> Buster commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72634 Buster Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:20:37 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72634 Never heard the Fleming record, but different styles of Schubert singing can be heard on the wonderful double CD from Preiser, Lieder in historischen Aufnahmen. I am fond of a lot of styles - from Elena Gerhardt and Elisbeth Schwarzkopf to Edith Mathis, but the recordings I listen to most are the four Gundula Janowitz/Irwin Gage CD's on DG. Margaret Price on Orfeo and Hyperion too, but none of her later recordings on Forlane. And I love Elisabeth Schumann's double CD on EMI. Never heard the Fleming record, but different styles of Schubert singing can be heard on the wonderful double CD from Preiser, Lieder in historischen Aufnahmen.

I am fond of a lot of styles – from Elena Gerhardt and Elisbeth Schwarzkopf to Edith Mathis, but the recordings I listen to most are the four Gundula Janowitz/Irwin Gage CD’s on DG. Margaret Price on Orfeo and Hyperion too, but none of her later recordings on Forlane. And I love Elisabeth Schumann’s double CD on EMI.

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72633 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:11:14 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72633 55 Don't just tear down. Offer an alternative with reasons for it. 55 Don’t just tear down. Offer an alternative with reasons for it.

]]> CerquettiFarrell commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72631 CerquettiFarrell Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:03:25 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72631 #53 - Fleming's Schubert wonderful, OK. I think it is one of the most laboured, beautified, cleverish lieder recitals ever recorded. Some songs were simply unbearable. The style is so WRONG IMHO. True, her Rach / Faure recital is even worse. No wonder both CDs are no longer in the catalogue #53 – Fleming’s Schubert wonderful, OK. I think it is one of the most laboured, beautified, cleverish lieder recitals ever recorded. Some songs were simply unbearable. The style is so WRONG IMHO. True, her Rach / Faure recital is even worse. No wonder both CDs are no longer in the catalogue

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72626 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:37:37 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72626 Thanks, Sanford, I've now ordered it. Now, very OT: do you or anyone here know of an online location to learn about and discuss lieder? I'm not a singer. Just an avid fan of the human voice. Thanks. Thanks, Sanford, I’ve now ordered it.

Now, very OT: do you or anyone here know of an online location to learn about and discuss lieder? I’m not a singer. Just an avid fan of the human voice.

Thanks.

]]> Sanford commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72624 Sanford Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:19:38 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72624 Also, Cruz, her Schubert is wonderful (not Elly Ameling, but wonderful in its own right) Also, Cruz, her Schubert is wonderful (not Elly Ameling, but wonderful in its own right)

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72621 CruzSF Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:11:34 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72621 Very interesting. Now I have a better understanding of "scooping," referred to so often by commenters here. I've read explanations of why singers do this, but it sounds uncomfortable. I ran out (virtually) to YouTube and found this clip of Callas. Even with the poor recording quality of the original, the performance seems more assured. httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlcfOqVN8W8 Obviously, I'm not trying to say anything ridiculous like "comparing Fleming to Callas is like comparing Sutherland to Malibran." I AM, though, noting different approaches that singers take and hearing which is more pleasing to my ear. As I've said before in other threads, I enjoyed Fleming in "Thais" last year but understand that others find that impossible. Very interesting. Now I have a better understanding of “scooping,” referred to so often by commenters here. I’ve read explanations of why singers do this, but it sounds uncomfortable. I ran out (virtually) to YouTube and found this clip of Callas. Even with the poor recording quality of the original, the performance seems more assured.

Obviously, I’m not trying to say anything ridiculous like “comparing Fleming to Callas is like comparing Sutherland to Malibran.” I AM, though, noting different approaches that singers take and hearing which is more pleasing to my ear. As I’ve said before in other threads, I enjoyed Fleming in “Thais” last year but understand that others find that impossible.

]]> CruzSF commented http://parterre.com/2009/08/31/its-a-return/comment-page-6/#comment-72587 CruzSF Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:59:25 +0000 http://parterre.com/?p=4824#comment-72587 Cool. Thanks, Sanford! I'll go back and listen to the recording again with your notes in mind. Cool. Thanks, Sanford! I’ll go back and listen to the recording again with your notes in mind.

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