Comments on: it’s a return!

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 23:05:59 +0000

CF: I agree with you that musicianship is much more about inhabiting the music and less about high notes or infallible pitch. I’m certainly amazed by the ability to nail a high note without scooping or swooping, but I’m a firm believer in acting being an important of singing opera.

I’ve watched the Brahms clip multiple times today and each time I’ve been riveted. Lehmann demonstrates convincingly here that acting is also a part of lieder.

By: CerquettiFarrell

CerquettiFarrell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:10:42 +0000

Also, I thought about this thing a lot when listening to many singers: the true artists tend to have some kind psychic ability – they manage to transfer to the audience their idea of how the music should go, even if sometimes their means are fallible. It happens often with Madame C: even at her worst, she is so highly aware of what she wants to do in the music, and it transpires even if from above G the sound is unbearable, and of course she sings off key sometimes, but mentally she’s never off key, if it makes sense (to me it does)

By: CerquettiFarrell

CerquettiFarrell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:55:19 +0000

Thanks, CruzSF, the Brahms clip moves me everytime I see it, there’s so much art there, yet such artlessness, if it makes sense, and yes, the transformation is palpable, endearing. I’m particularly fond of her expression during the piano ritornello, there’s so much MUSIC inside that woman. And the way she immediately starts singing and the pianist obeys, spellbound.

And if I may, Lehmann’s singing is a good vehicle to demonstrate what I’m incessantly referring to as “harmonically-aware singing”.
Notice at the “ich sah’ erst” on 01:10 the way the color changes because the harmony changes too. Then on 1:20 there’s a reassessment of the original tonality and likewise she strengthens the line. Likewise the way she listens to the piano as it syncopates in parallel to the vocal line, so that the voice and piano become a true duet – 01:26.
That’s the kind of musicianship I cherish. Who cares about high notes or that kind of stuff when somebody takes the trouble to make some real music – I know I don’t!

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:27:27 +0000

CF, I’m working my way through your list of YouTube videos. The Lotte Lehmann master class is so impressive. Whether her voice is too creaky or not, her transformation from late Lehmann to young [girl] in facial expression, body movement, and vocal color is simply amazing.

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:04:26 +0000

CerquettiFarrell, you really came through. Thank you so much!

By: Sanford

Sanford — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:00:36 +0000

Someone slap my face and call me Miss Marmelstein. I’m done.

By: Sanford

Sanford — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:56:28 +0000

I have to take a moment to sing a showtune. You all discuss. I’ll be right back.

By: Sanford

Sanford — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:55:25 +0000

Barbra Joan Streisand is candy (and the sun’s a ball of buttah!); she was no blemish on the nose of life’s complexion. And couldn’t you just scoop up Omar and eat him with a spoon?

By: Sanford

Sanford — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:49:08 +0000

To me, the two greatest lieder singers, and admittedly it’s not my area of expertise, were Elly Ameling and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau.

I’m also rather fond of Peter Schreier

By: rapt

rapt — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:58:02 +0000

CerquettiFarrell, thanks so much for introducing me to Kuhmeier. Love that clip!

By: CerquettiFarrell

CerquettiFarrell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:13:46 +0000

#56, sorry you are VERY right. I normally don’t just berate without providing explanations. Bascially I think Fleming’s Schubert lacks a sense of spontaeniety and naturaleness.
One of the best Lieder recitals to be had, I think, is Irmgard Seefried’s double album on DG
http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Lieder/dp/B0015RR4XI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1251975272&sr=8-1

another one is her Testament recital comprised of Mozart concert arias and Lieder:
http://www.amazon.com/Irmgard-Seefried-Johannes-Brahms/dp/B000003XI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975323&sr=8-1

Aly Ameling, as mentioned before, is exquisite in Schubert et al, I think her best album is probably the one with Jorg Demus on DHM :
http://www.amazon.com/Elly-Ameling-Schubert-Schumann-Songs/dp/B000001TWU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1251975395&sr=1-1

and, for me, practically all ot Lotte Lehmann’s late Lieder records, which I prise for the sincerity, warmth and still spectacular voice. There are all to be had on Naxos historical, including a near-complete Winterreise, split between the various volumes, but then it is highly addictive: buying one, you might want to have them all.

here she is, croaky voice and all, yet incomparable in a Brahms Lied during a masterclass:

I’m not much of a Schwarzkopf fan: I can’t deny the intelligence and the hard work behind it all, also the sheer beauty of the sound, but it often sounds (to me) contrived and devoid of naturaleness. DFD I like his younger, more deeper-voiced self.

I’d also recommend most of Janet Baker’s Lied albums, especially Brahms and Mahler, two composers in which she particularly excelled.

French melodie: Suzanne Danco, Gerard Souzay, and for me the greatest: Charles Panzera.

Modern singers: I love Ian Bostridge’s first Schubert recital with the patrician Julius Drake. It still has the best Im Fruhling (my favourite Schubert song) and Ganymed.
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-25-Lieder-Franz/dp/B000A2H7PY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975879&sr=1-8

baritones: most impressive nowadays is probably Christian Gerhaher. Love the voice, attitude, diction and discretion:
http://www.amazon.com/Melancholie-Liederkreis-op-39-Christian-Gerhaher/dp/B000WGWW9Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251975925&sr=1-1

Bernarda Fink is very impressive in Brahms and Schumann. Her Schubert and Berlioz I found pretty bland.

Grip any Lorraine Hunt recital you see -- especially the one just out on HMF from Ravinia. Undoubtedly to my mind, she was the best vocal artist of the last 20-30 years. The most generous and warm and totally devoid of any mannerism whatsoever.

http://www.amazon.com/Recital-Lorraine-Hunt-Lieberson-Ravinia/dp/B001L15C5K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976026&sr=1-1

This recital has the best Von ewige Liebe that I have ever heard. Also a wonderful Abendempfindung.

I don’t see any really interesting new sopranos in this field, though the radiant Genia Kuhmeier might prove to be a new Seefried.

Anja Harteros is also a responsive, individual artist. I love her recent 4 last songs, one of the most individual and warm.

French song has Veronique Gens in a beautiful recital that “grows on you”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cVF8H6Ils

and her Nuits d’ete is great too:
http://www.amazon.com/V%C3%A9ronique-Gens-Berlioz-Nuits-Cl%C3%A9opatre/dp/B00005A9ND/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251976361&sr=1-1

And Bartoli as a song artist is not to be ignored. Her French album one of the vocal glories of the gramophone. If only she’s concentrate on this kind of rep instead of her quirky operatic appearances!

By: manou

manou — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:36:33 +0000

Apologies for dropping an H – Rosthchild.

By: manou

manou — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:18:47 +0000

@QPF 25 : not sure why you would like to know, but this is what I can make out (obviously the premiere of Funny Girl in Paris) :

(numbers refer to white numbers on screen)

02:41:15 : Michele Morgan dancing with her husband Gerard Oury
02:45:06 : Streisand with the Baron Guy de Rotschild
02:54:23 : obviously Omar Sharif
03:04:15 : lady in mink and Gunter Sachs (Brigitte Bardot’s then husband)
03:06:16 : Maurice Chevalier and BS
03:15:01 : Daniel Gelin
04:37:23 : this one is a poser because it looks exactly like Karim Aga Khan, but if it is the same man who is escorting her just before, it ain’t him
04:50:15 : OS
04:55:23 : more Gerard Oury and Michele Morgan
05:11:22 : Eddie Barclay (French music mogul)

Hope this helps…

By: Buster

Buster — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:20:37 +0000

Never heard the Fleming record, but different styles of Schubert singing can be heard on the wonderful double CD from Preiser, Lieder in historischen Aufnahmen.

I am fond of a lot of styles – from Elena Gerhardt and Elisbeth Schwarzkopf to Edith Mathis, but the recordings I listen to most are the four Gundula Janowitz/Irwin Gage CD’s on DG. Margaret Price on Orfeo and Hyperion too, but none of her later recordings on Forlane. And I love Elisabeth Schumann’s double CD on EMI.

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 08:11:14 +0000

55 Don’t just tear down. Offer an alternative with reasons for it.

By: CerquettiFarrell

CerquettiFarrell — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 07:03:25 +0000

#53 – Fleming’s Schubert wonderful, OK. I think it is one of the most laboured, beautified, cleverish lieder recitals ever recorded. Some songs were simply unbearable. The style is so WRONG IMHO. True, her Rach / Faure recital is even worse. No wonder both CDs are no longer in the catalogue

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:37:37 +0000

Thanks, Sanford, I’ve now ordered it.

Now, very OT: do you or anyone here know of an online location to learn about and discuss lieder? I’m not a singer. Just an avid fan of the human voice.

Thanks.

By: Sanford

Sanford — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:19:38 +0000

Also, Cruz, her Schubert is wonderful (not Elly Ameling, but wonderful in its own right)

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 03:11:34 +0000

Very interesting. Now I have a better understanding of “scooping,” referred to so often by commenters here. I’ve read explanations of why singers do this, but it sounds uncomfortable. I ran out (virtually) to YouTube and found this clip of Callas. Even with the poor recording quality of the original, the performance seems more assured.

Obviously, I’m not trying to say anything ridiculous like “comparing Fleming to Callas is like comparing Sutherland to Malibran.” I AM, though, noting different approaches that singers take and hearing which is more pleasing to my ear. As I’ve said before in other threads, I enjoyed Fleming in “Thais” last year but understand that others find that impossible.

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:59:25 +0000

Cool. Thanks, Sanford! I’ll go back and listen to the recording again with your notes in mind.

By: Sanford

Sanford — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:51:35 +0000

Cruz,

:25 Swoop
:50 Swoop
1:10 the tone on the first few notes of the descent is a little tentative, I think. As if she needed a second to find the pitch.
2:54 Croony at the top and starting the descent.
And glottal stops all over the place. Minor, but there, which I believe is one of the reasons La Cieca compared her 2005 performance of the Vespre Bolero on a later thread to verismo.

There is a lot to love about this performance, and at that point in her career, I loved most of what she sang. I still love some of what she sings, such as the Marietta’s Lied from the Met Gala this year. But I don’t think this is what Armida will sound like. Certain rep seems to accentuate her mannerisms, and I think bel canto in particular is an issue. Interestingly, I went to Amazon to listen to excerpts from earlier albums, and heard her Haunted Heart album, and aside from My Cherie Amour (and it’s the fault of the arrangement more than her singing), she sounds amazing, perfectly at home and relaxed. And it seems mostly lie in the middle and bottom of her voice, which is stunning.

By: CruzSF

CruzSF — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:26:00 +0000

Come on, Sanford, help a brother out, man.

By: Krunoslav

Krunoslav — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 10:39:33 +0000

Speaking of (diminishing) returns:

http://www.bsomusic.org/main.taf?p=1,9,1,3,1,1&EventID=SPEC3

By: javier

javier — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:20:02 +0000

mrmyster, if it’s not beautiful singing then what is it? :/

By: sutherlandfan

sutherlandfan — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:02:13 +0000

Incidently, the clip at #13 is from the April, 1996, Opera Orchestra of NY Armida with Gregory Kunde and Bruce Fowler as well as Fleming, and those of us lucky enough to be there enjoyed ourselves tremendously.

By: mrmyster

mrmyster — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:18:13 +0000

Ah, now I see the date; yes 12 or 13 years ago; makes sense. One
does not have to sing all that ornamentation and if fleming sings
Armida at the Met as scheduled one presumes she will sing a more lyric soprano version. So I hope!

By: mrmyster

mrmyster — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:15:02 +0000

#13 Javier – certainly a very interesting example of what Fleming can do, but what of the date? From hair style I would say it was ten years ago, even 12? I am not certain she can sing that way now — are you?
But with respect, and much is due, I would not call that ‘bel canto’ singing, even if it depended on bel canto technique, if you know what I mean. What’s the sustained high note, a C?

By: mrmyster

mrmyster — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 02:08:40 +0000

Ma no Troppo: Indeed I recall Sra. Stignani as Amneris; her costumes looked about 1910; Stella was youthful and ‘modern’ in dress; I also recall Gino Penno was the tenor whose voice was experiencing very severe problems — I think he quit the trade not too long thereafter.

By: jatm2063

jatm2063 — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:11:51 +0000

Cara La Cieca:

As always, the smallest acknowledgement from you makes my day, and usually makes me laugh as well.

You look STUNNING these days. Red sequins become you so well! And “the girls” are certainly flying high these days also!

By: Troppo Primavera

Troppo Primavera — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:11:19 +0000

40 you were a college boy-I was a school boy with an over developped memory for-um-trivia.No,Miss Cross did’nt cover and I don’t think that word would have been in her vocabulary.Aida with Stella you may recall had the legendary if somewhat aged Ebe Stignani as Amneris.A true donna immobille.